January 28, 2021 | our foundations

podcast: being a student of hope, embodiment of radical hope

We had nourishing conversation with Nicole Raines, LMFT, on her Be Love, Be Well, Be Whole podcast (that Dena is also a podcast co-host of). We talk music, defining and tapping into hope amidst grief and injustice, and the stellar move, One Night in Miami. 

Listen on all the places where podcasts live. Transcript of the conversation has been slightly shortened, though we did keep the transcript as close a mirror to our original conversation, which means a lot of run on sentences. Enjoy! 

Nicole: Here we are Dena with Episode Two and we have another guest. So just might take a moment for us to introduce ourselves. I’m Nicole Raines, Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist.

Dena: And I am Dena Scott, licensed clinical psychologist.

Connie: Hi everyone. My name is Connie Chiu. And I am a Diversity, Equity, Inclusion practitioner.

Nicole: Welcome Connie. Glad you can join us today.

Connie: I’m so excited to be here. And so grateful knowing that, you know, at the end of this conversation with you both, I’m going to feel so nourished and energized.

Dena: We appreciate that. We feel the same about you. So we will feel the same being able to engage with you. We’re so grateful.

Nicole: So why don’t we get things started with our icebreaker that we do each episode, which is what is the theme song for the day. And so Connie, as our guest would love for you to go first — theme song for the day just kind of gives a in-the-moment snapshot of where we’re at.

Connie: Yes, I love this question because it’s also very hard. I love music, living inside music, sometimes more than in the actual world. So I did cheat a little. I looked at my Spotify to see what track I’ve been playing the most. And for 2020, even in 2021, my most played track is this song called Heavy with Hoping by Madeon, which I don’t know if you both listen to EDM at all, but it’s this really bittersweet, nostalgic EDM track that got me through my grandpa’s passing last May. And it’s not a particularly great track or socially significant in anyway. But every time I listen to it, it just feels like a warm hug, and it makes me feel connected to my grandpa, even though he like hated EDM.

Nicole: I love that.

Dena: I love that. And I love the description as well because the connection to so many different parts of our lives is so much a part of music, and I love that your grandfather might not have been a big fan, but it also is something that feels connected to him in some way as well.

Nicole: Yeah. And just the description of it being a warm hug that I have a visualization and I see where you’re at today, Connie. What about you, Dena?

Dena: So I think for me, I am a huge Dwele fan and when I think about something that I used to play on repeat for probably a decade was probably several of Dwele’s, you know, albums and so if there’s a specific song called Love Ultra that just speaks to me, speaks to my heart. And I feel like because this has been an intense past several months for me and then for the world in so many different ways, I love that song in terms of how it feeds my spirit, feeds my soul, feeds my heart. So I’ve got a little Dwele on my on my mind today.

Nicole: I like it. So for me today, my theme song is Umi Says, which is one of my favorite songs out there and that’s by Mos Def, and it’s where I am, especially when it’s like you know, “my Umi says shine your light on the world.” And just really filling in that space, especially with our topic today being how to be hopeful when you’re actually tired. But being able to still have that light, you know, even if it feels dim or like it’s flickering, being able to attach to it and radiate it out for yourself and then to others. So that’s where I’m at today is that light feels like it’s actually shining pretty bright, and wanting to share it with others. So that’s where I’m at. And it’s funny and with this being our second episode but then including our trailer all these different theme songs that we’re coming up with, I think I might even create a playlist, Dena like how you feel about that. We have a collection of them.

Dena: Yeah, I love it. Again music is such a spirit, soul filler so yes, I’m all about it.

Connie: And you’d get such a wide range with the people that you have on and how you’re bringing people together like that’d be such a beautiful playlist. I love it.

Nicole: I’m excited about it because my playlist in general has every probably genre of music in them. So with the EDM, Connie, I’m like I’m gonna look it up. I’m excited.

Connie: Let me know what you think!

Dena: Connie also is really great at playlists. I will say we had an event together to where she put together a playlist and we all were huge fans and we wanted her to professionally do it for us. So music is definitely a part of all of us in so many ways.

Nicole: Yes, I love it. One of the connectors that we have. So Connie wanting to just even hear more about you and what you do, just kind of talking about and even yourself. And then how do you incorporate love, wellness, and wholeness into the work that you do?

Connie: Yeah, so I love describing myself as Dena’s partner in crime. I don’t know if she also likes that.

Dena: Yes, I love it!

Connie: I love describing myself as Dena’s partner in crime. I’m one of the co-founders, along with Dena for the and/now collective where a lot of our work is about facilitating racial justice and healing for all types of spaces and places across industry. And I just feel so lucky and really just so humbled to be able to be co-founders with Dena on this journey. What, you know, we used to dream about and talk about this as co workers six years ago, and to actually have it come to fruition and become a reality in 2020, which has been probably one of the hardest years I’ve ever lived so far. Just feels so great. I also call myself a Diversity Equity Inclusion practitioner, and that’s how I introduced myself on this conversation with you both, though, and I talk to Dena about this — so I’ve been really feeling like that umbrella title doesn’t quite fully capture what I do and what I’m passionate about, or even what and/now does in its entirety, right. Like I’ve always been really into justice work, right, and really thinking about liberation beyond just diversity and inclusion, and really thinking about communities most impacted by the various systems of oppression, white supremacy, colonialism, and so on. So there’s a part of me where Diversity, Equity Inclusion feels buzzwordy now and almost performative. And I don’t know if there’s like this millennial part of me where I’m like, Oh, it’s too hipster now like, and if something gets too hipster no longer what, where I should be in. I don’t know. I’m trying to discover like, what, what’s next in that particular calling of myself? And the part about incorporating love, wellness and wholeness. I think I love the question around music. I think music is one of the more easy ways and concrete ways that I do incorporate that into my own wholeness. Also something that I’ve been doing a lot of in 2020, and even before, but more intentionally in 2020, is doing a lot of writing, particularly around grief and even around this topic of hope, right? Or a sense of not having hope. Because really, with losing my grandpa, who was my dad and my father figure, and that experience really broke me in ways that I could have never imagined. So through writing, reading, just disentangling how, how hopeful I feel about the future, as I’m mourning, I’ve really come to know and discover grief as a gift, which just sounds so paradoxical, right? But in that I’ve been able to really reminisce and think about how much love existed or still exist with the person I lost. And, you know, how much love still remains in my grandpa’s absence. So, yeah, some of the things I’ve been thinking about, and one of the biggest one is that, you know, grief could be a gift, which is wild to think about in 2020 and 2021.

Dena: Wild and beautiful all at the same time.

Nicole: Yes, I mean, I think that Connie even in you sharing, you touched upon our topic is just even being able to have some semblance of hope, even while you’re grieving. And that’s something that 2020 had a huge amount of grief for people. So I really thank you for sharing that. I’m wanting to piggyback upon that, and just talking about being hopeful. So we’re in 2021. Right, and today that we’re recording is the 23rd day of 2021. And Connie, Dena and I do this monthly. So for you, Dena, I don’t know if this has been the case but in between, I don’t even know if we had a full month in between our recording, yeah, we have. It’s felt like a few years — things, the places, faces and just the different things that have occurred. And being able to do that. So today’s topic came about because of even though I was on break from my private practice, for a full month, I’ve still been doing, work here and there, still working with some of the law firms. And then just this notion of how do I keep hope, when all these things keep happening? People are exhausted. They’re mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally, like exhausted from the onslaught. What seemed like there was something every day, especially towards that last part of 2020 that they had to deal with and just wondering, can they even have hope? So that’s where the topic came about. And I just wanted to dive into that, of, you know, being able to even define hope. What is hope? How do you define hope?

Dena: Yeah, I feel like there are so many layers when you think about hope. And, you know, I’m thinking a little bit about what Connie said in terms of, you know, connecting even how she looks at grief, to looking at grief as a gift. And, you know, when we think about things that happen, and I think about something such as hope, hope is kind of the ability for me to trust in the fact or to be able to trust in the fact that something will work out, something will work out better, something will improve, and it’s for me connected a lot to, you know, faith, as well as that belief and that expectation that there are going to be some opportunities for the growth, to have some ability to fill my spirit, my heart, my soul, my mind, in ways that I might not have ever anticipated. And it’s been very hard, I would say in 2020. But there’s been a lot of other times when I think hope is also hard. You know, Connie mentioned the grief and the loss of her grandfather, and I think about Nicole and I connecting a lot on the loss of our moms and being able to still have hope and trust in the fact that, you know, I am going to get through it, that there are some things that are better, that are coming and that again, there’s that refrain that I could look at this loss in a way that doesn’t have to feel like it’s creating a sense of emptiness — to me is part of my hope.

Connie: And I think that, for me, hope has always felt like such a big word and concept that I didn’t know how to make sense of it. And I think I sometimes have trouble defining hope and seeking clarity with hope. And I don’t know, sometimes I think there is a funny relationship I have with language where it feels like it’s not adequate enough. But I know that I’ve definitely felt hopeful. And I know that the most recent time that I felt hopeful is when I saw my friends and families get the COVID vaccine because they’re working in the frontlines. And I remember when they were telling me the story, I was like, wow, like I’m getting this really visceral and bodily reaction to feeling hopeful. But outside of that, I don’t know if i’ve ever uplifted hope as a core value or necessarily a guiding light of mine. But I will say that what has gotten me closer and more intimate with hope but where it doesn’t feel as empty is what Dena, you’re speaking to. And I think this tradition of radical hope, which isn’t really you know, about pure optimism or even positivity. I think for me, it’s really about communal resilience, of having endured and suffered, but also knowing that on the other side, that we make it, that we not only survive, but that we thrive. And, you know, I think about just the context that we’re all in and how especially significant that is for Black, Indigenous, People of color, or even for my own family’s experience as refugees from Laos, having lived under military invasion and occupation and violence for generations, only to be uprooted. But not knowing what comes next, yet still moving because possibilities do exist beyond despair, pain, and anguish. And I think part of it is, part of the hope that I want to do is the way that I’ve reconfigured grief as a gift in that, you know, having radical hope is a kind of world building and future that I also want to pass down to, I don’t know, my future descendants, even if I don’t live to see it. I think that’s what hope is for me. But it’s always so big and lofty that I haven’t been able to really get it, get a full grasp on it.

Nicole: I love that, Connie, and you touched upon so much in there, of just even talking about it. It’s not necessarily even that you’re just this sense of positivity all the time. It’s impossible to be positive all the time. And even the difference between being hopeful and being optimistic, and then wrapping in radical hope, which is the collective in there. I think that that’s, that’s amazing, and just radical hope going along with radical healing. So Connie, I don’t know if you mind, but maybe exploring a little bit more about that radical hope. What what makes it radical?

Connie: Yeah, no, that’s a really good question. I think I’m gonna put it in the context of my family. I think it’s knowing the history and the culture and the identity of the family and the places that we come from, and really taking that as some form of ancestral power or connection to be able to push through. I think, hope, much like empathy, and Dena and I have talked a lot about the limits of empathy, where hope, empathy has become in some ways, empty over time because there’s no action or teeth to it, right. And what I think about when I think about radical hope and radical healing, radical love, radical empathy is what writer Nicole Debarber says about growing love that has teeth, right. So how are we growing love and empathy and healing that has teeth so that there is action behind it, so that there is like you say, Nicole, collectivism behind it. And it’s not just a way of feeling ourselves to this positive world vision, but actually acting from it and believing in possibilities, even when it feels like it is so impossible, right. And really knowing that what will get us through is our relationships with others, the community that we have, and the history that we carry within ourselves. And for me, I think everything, the lens that I look at the world and the relationships that I have is really rooted in justice and liberation and healing. So that also adds a radical piece of it. What does it mean to have hope when we as a people, and I’m speaking from my experience, but also for BIPOC, like we as a people have been oppressed, right? Like, what does it mean to still have hope, and see light and carry light and shine light through all of that? So that’s what I think about with the radical piece of it, which I know, is not always the same for everyone. And I’m curious about what you both also think in terms of the radical piece?

Nicole: No, I personally love the radical piece. That’s something, cause when I was thinking about, okay, let’s try to define hope. I sat with it. And I know, the definition of hope, of, you know, being a wanting for something to happen in the future. But then when I was looking up, like, let me have more definition to it, there’s an archaic definition of to trust. So Dena, when you were speaking, that’s actually what hope feels like to me, is being able to trust even when it might be bleak, or doesn’t look like things are moving or happening, that they’re going to. And then to your point, Connie, the radical, because I came across radical hope when I was looking into radical healing, to be able to have the cultural wellness sessions that I do for organizations. And it is the radical part of it being the collective, that is not just the individual, but you also are seeing that your efforts are not futile, that you’re going to continue on as a people, as a group, and that it does have teeth to it, as you said, Connie, there’s momentum behind it, there’s action behind it. So for me, my hope is individual and collective. That’s just kind of how I live my life. So both of those really resonate with me. So I’m really happy that that came into the space today.

Dena: Yeah and I love it too. And, you know, when I hear both of you speak, it makes me think about some of the work that Connie and I have been able to do in different spaces, and kind of similar to you, Nicole, and in the spaces that you’ve been able to go into and to provide, you know, a sense of healing in some way. And for me, I think in order to get to a place to where anyone could heal, there has to be a sense of hope. And at some level, because it’s hard to actually be able to go through healing if it’s without hope. So, you know, and thinking about things that might have gone on generationally in this country, when you think about the complexity of systemic oppression, or racism, or all of the other things, and you think about even the pandemic, and COVID, and so many different things that are connected to that, you know, around, maybe even fear, frustration, concern, it’s hard, again, to heal as an individual and get to that point of healing as a collective. If we are without hopefulness, without hope, without, you know, being hopeful in some ways. And so I feel like I, in some ways, when I think about that radical piece, it makes me think we are one step closer to the healing.

Connie: Mm hmm. I love that. I remember seeing a — it’s popping up in my head right now in this conversation, listening to you both, where freedom is at the individual level, and then liberation is at the collective level. And I love how Nicole, you really explicitly said that, you know, the radical hope is at the collective level, and I’m really feeling that clarity.

Nicole: That really resonated with me. And then Dena, you mentioned, one of the challenges of what happens when you can’t necessarily tap into a sense of hope is, I mean, there’s despair. That’s one of the challenges that happens, but how are you able to even have any kind of healing without it being present. And that hope there’s — I was reading a research study, and that the ability to generate and tap into hope, actually had better outcomes than having social supports, or any of the other coping mechanisms. So as a clinician, and then as one that’s doing workplace wellness, it’s like, oh, wow, we really got to tap into some hope this year for it to be some healing and some restoration. And that is an ongoing process, you just don’t arrive. It’s an ongoing, active and sometimes painful process, but being able to tap into that, because without hope, your outcomes aren’t going to be as positive. As we’re talking about that, what we like to do here, Connie, is when we talk about the topic, and we delve into it, we like to give our folks who are on this journey with us and some tips, especially since I had the message just now that having some hope can actually support you more than social supports and other coping mechanisms. Do either one of you have tips for how people can maybe tap into some help when they’re not feeling so hopeful in the moment

Connie: Ooh, good question. I’m still a student in this area. And I actually have learned a lot from Dena in holding on to hope and tapping into hope. Just because, and Dena knows this about me, I’m sometimes a pessimist and I have catastrophic thinking, which my therapist has been like, you need to work on that. But I think what has been really helpful for me, and especially in this past year, is really living into and practicing the both/and approach where there can be multiple truths and feelings and complexities that exist simultaneously. And that they actually need to exist together in the same space and place, so really pushing myself to not surrender to, you know, binaries, where even if I am feeling just completely, you know, hopeless or in despair and frustration, especially in the social justice and racial justice space, to always still push myself to use both/and lens and ask how I can expand and make room for hope, whatever form it takes. I’ve also been thinking a lot about how we reframe what hope looks like for people of color, right? Because, especially, you know, in the work around movement and justice, it sometimes feels like there’s a shame to surrendering to hope, in that, we’re conditioned as people of color or as women of color to constantly have to feel frustrated and angry and suspicious of hope, given our inability as a nation to truly reckon with the horrors of anti-Black racism and oppression, that we’ve been tricked into thinking that we have to earn these feelings of hopefulness, or that we’re not working hard enough for equity and justice if we give into hope, that, you know, anger and frustration are the only ways to fuel a movement, and that’s just, that’s just really not true, which is something that I discovered in 2020 the most. And so that’s something that I’m really trying to tap into, is knowing that our power can come from our joy, which is something to be really hopeful about, that our power and change doesn’t only come from us being angry and frustrated all the time. But again, I’m such a learner from Dena because I have always just been fueled by anger and frustration in the past and feeling like there is no hope. But 2020 has really shifted that for me.

Dena: Well, and what I will say, just to reframe a little of what Connie’s saying about herself is the fact that, you know, when I heard you speaking Connie, and when I think about just, you know, the process of hope, and you know, tips and tricks, when we think about hope for others is that it doesn’t exist in a vacuum, right. So just because one is hopeful doesn’t mean that it’s not frustrating as heck, doesn’t mean that we don’t have some pain, that we don’t have some sadness, that we’re not also dealing with all of those things. And I think that it’s so important and vital, just connecting to what you said, Connie, that we’re able to hold space for the fact that all of those things can exist within a person and you still can therefore push forward in a hopeful fashion, that it doesn’t have to stunt us, that it doesn’t have to feel like it’s creating, you know, this extensive barrier to where we can’t do, but that we’re also very much aware that there’s things that have created some barriers that are outside of ourselves, that are maybe part of ourselves that are all of these other things. So for me, I think that’s something that’s super important, because I think we do have a lot of pressure as people to feel hope in a way that looks one way. So if I’m hopeful, I need to therefore be smiling, or I need to therefore be saying things in a certain tone. But no, I could be hopeful. And I can actually, you know, be frustrated as heck. I could be raising my voice. But I still can have some hope and some forward momentum to — Okay, things are going to change, or there is a way to maybe potentially push things forward. It doesn’t mean that I’m thinking that maybe they will be in this way that they’re going to be pushed forward to some semblance of, you know, we’re going to eradicate all things that have happened around that are bad in this quick, immediate way. But that eventually we chip away at things and we’re able to push through. So you know, I think for me, when I think about again, that the tips and tricks, when it comes to hope is again, just giving ourselves permission to exist in our buried feelings. And to know that we can still push forward in hopefulness, if we allow ourselves to trust in the fact that we are going to be able to to move it, and the movement might be slow — it might go forward and then go backwards, but we can still continue to chip away, to chip away.

Nicole: I like that. What I’m pulling from both of you is just that acknowledgement, awareness, and with those two, being able to see that it’s not a dichotomy, right, there’s a spectrum and there’s even a spectrum of hope, and really being able to look at it through those lenses as well as incremental changes that might happen when you’re able to be in those moments. So, you know, for me, it is building upon those, of people giving yourself permission to feel however you’re feeling in that moment in time and then being able to access that and that could be through journaling, that can be through taking a walk. We as a collective are not getting outside as much as we need to, and nature is something that really does help us reset and refocus ourselves. So just getting outside, even if it was for five minutes, and being able to sit or walk and to clear your space — that’s something that can help you just to be able to acknowledge, and not feeling like you said that you have to be just a certain way, that you can’t be hopeful and angry, because yes, you can. I’ve watched people do that. So just those those things to acknowledge and be aware, and support! Talking to others. That’s one of the other reasons why I love being able to have guests come on so that it’s talking to others, and really being able to bounce ideas off of one another so that you know that you’re not on your own. So that’s another thing that I would say, is for people to really just seek out others, even if it’s one other person to chat with. And just being able to give yourself that permission to.

Connie: I love that. I love that. I always love when Dena reframe things for me, such a wonderful reframe. And I think hearing both of you, what also is coming up for me is how we can all be students of hope, in some ways. Teach and guide us in ways that does disrupt our, you know, our one way of understanding or expressing hope, as you both are saying. So I really appreciate that.

Nicole: I like that, Connie. Connie, I think that’s going to be the title of the episode — being a student of hope.

Dena: Oh, I love that!

Nicole: I really do. I love that. So as we’re winding down here, any other, you know, tips that you want to share. And then Connie, we also want to give an opportunity for you to tell everyone where they can find you. And if you have any other events or anything that are on the horizon and being able to share?

Connie: Ooh, yes! I think the last tip that came to mind, just thinking about hope in 2020 and beyond is designing boundaries is a lot of ways. And partly because before the global pandemic, and before losing my grandpa and before all of the things that caught fire last year, I was really bad about boundaries. I either had no boundaries, or I had boundaries that were set so far out where no one could get close to me. And so I think, in thinking about hope, and also thinking about how do we set boundaries with hope, around hope, for hope, is learning how to set them with expressions of love, where they don’t have to be permanent or closures, but can actually be openings for myself and for others. And I think this is something that Dena and I have been, you know, just trying to practice more within the work that we do for and/now and was the topic of our most recent newsletter. And, you know, just really thinking about boundaries, also as a gift and not always a form of self protection. Yeah, so I think that’s something I’ve been thinking a lot about. And I think there is this connection between boundaries and hope for me that is coming up. And I think the best way right now, well Dena and I don’t really have any events coming up for and/now collective but we’re excited to build more. The best way to stay in touch with us at this moment is to subscribe to our newsletters through our website, which is at www.and-now-collective.com. We’re just excited to connect with people and like being in conversations like these with people. So just looking to build more spaces like these for radicalness, for collectivism, we’re really thinking about healing and really thinking about justice together.

Dena: Thank you, Connie. No, I appreciate you being able to just provide some more, you know, your insight when it comes to hope and definitely love being able to tell people where to find you, where to find us, and also how to, you know, connect the work that we do even to this topic, because I think there’s so much intersect and so much connection. I think for me, you know, just going off of what Connie was saying about boundaries — I think that’s huge. I also feel like it’s important for us to be able to give ourselves also that permission to take some time to tap into the things that bring us a sense of hope and hopefulness, because I think at times, again, there’s folks trying to define things for us or there’s maybe an expectation that we feel like we should have, you know, hope maybe in this area or that area, but just being able to take some time to really get a sense of what is hope for you and what brings you hope, whether that’s you know a thing, whether that’s a cause, whether that’s a person, whether that’s just within yourself, to be able to give that time and give that space in place and permission. I also feel like you know, right now there are so many things that can feel very heavy, and to allow yourself to not only to identify when that heaviness is coming up, but also to identify when you might need some, you know, additional support, to process, and to tap into those strengths that can also attach to healing. Because, you know, again, with everything, with all things, and especially with certain groups of us, that sometimes we want to be super men and women — we need to take that time and to honor that we can’t really do it all, and we might need somebody else to support us through that. And that could be, you know, the support that Nicole was talking about with reaching out to folks, you know, personally. It could be somebody professionally, whether that’s a therapist, counselor, coach. There are so many different ways. Spiritual advisor. But to really be able to tap into and to be okay with that. Like, if you feel like you need something extra, that is okay. Especially right now, because there are so many things and layers of you know, things that might be feeling like they’re blocks for your feelings of helpfulness.

Nicole: Thank you for that, Dena. I think something that’s important too, is being able to wrap that in there and to chip away from the stigma, that going to get any sort of formal supports may look like but that’s what you know, that’s what we’re doing right, is disrupting the myths and misconceptions about mental health. So being able to do that, too. And I know that another way for us to kind of wrap in hope in there, and you you’ve mentioned it, as well as also finding those moments of joy. We, Connie, that’s how we kind of close out, is we talk about, you know, no matter how small, could just be a candle, or a birthday candle amount of joy that you experienced.

Connie: I can hear the joy in your voice. Yeah, that’s great. That actually gives me a lot of joy too. So I think for me a big joy and appreciation today is actually you two, and having this conversation and just us taking up space. And also one joy that I have, and I like wanted to shout it out as I watched this movie last night, which is just such a phenomenal movie called One Night in Miami, directed by Regina King. Oh, yeah. It gave me such radical joy. It wasn’t just like pure joy. But there was a lot of conflicting joy for me. And I think that like part of what I took away from just how powerful it was, for me, is just the revelation in the complexity, nuances and flaws and these martyrs we’ve lionized or even villainized as a country, right? It’s just such a way where the three, the four main characters are lovingly critiquing each other and how they show up in racial justice movement work. And I just love anything where Malcolm X gets some spotlight.

Dena: Yes! I’m here for that. I am here for that.

Nicole: That was a phenomenal movie. Connie, thank you for sharing that joy. I was talking to my husband about it after we watched it. And I was like this also for me, was being able to see there being identified men, being able to have these vulnerable conversations with one another, and chipping away with what we might have thought each one of them was like. So I really appreciated that element to it too. Definitely a moment of joy has been, as I just mentioned, was being able to spend time and just relax and watch a couple of movies with my husband and being able to watch movies now with the kids and being able also to see our Vice President take the oath of office. And as both my careers, former career as an attorney, just really seeing that was a moment of joy for me as well. So those are my joyful moments. As a collective and as an individual.

Dena: Thank you, Nicole. Thank you, Nicole and Connie. Definitely appreciate that and appreciate, you know, hearing from all of us to highlight the fact that joy can look so many different ways and can come up like you said in the smallest form or the biggest way and it still can mean so much. So with that, I want to just leave us with the fact that being whole is for everyone. We definitely want to highlight that and when it comes to each of our segments because it really speaks a lot to us, how we feel, and this work. So we want to thank you for joining us today. We would love you to not only listen today, but also to be sure to subscribe as well. Until next time, be love, be well, be whole.

and, now